Revert 310R Redux camera tilt & some feedback

[aurel]

The default VC camera position is angled down. Is there a way for me to change that to the usual "level" camera view?

The reason being that P3D's native VR does not offer a way to reset that angle. So my usual procedure is: enable VR, put on headset, notice that my view is not level, remove headset, disable VR, use Space + Mouse to center the view until it "snaps", re-enable VR, put on headset again, fly.

I don't mind editing cfg files, I just want a permanent solution.

Please advise,
Marc

PS: Love the product, but I have some feedback:

- I'm having performance issues (yeah, thanks to VR it's 2005 all over again) when using GTN750/650/WX, so I'm only using GTN750/650. For performance reasons, I would've liked to see a combination of a single GTN unit with a "standard" radio and optionally the weather radar (ie. GTN750/standard radio and GTN750/standard radio/WX), or a more flexible solution (think RealAir).

- It's a shame that you didn't take the opportunity reduxing the product to also implement Lockheed-Martin's recommended add-on installation method (ie. "add-on.xml"). Moving the add-ons out of the sim's folder into the realm of the add-on manager makes a user's life so much easier and cleaner when it comes to troubleshooting sim problems, re-installation or updates.

[N4GIX]

The default VC camera position is angled down. Is there a way for me to change that to the usual "level" camera view?

There is no angle to the default VC camera position. There's not even a way to do that if we wished! The default VC camera is defined in the sim's own Cameras.cfg file located here:
C:\Users\YourName\AppData\Roaming\Lockheed Martin\Prepar3D v4\cameras.cfg

We already offer 20 different panel combinations. However, if you wish you can easily "exclude" the second GPS by editing the console_GTN750_650.xml or console_GTN750_650_WX.xml files. For example:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<Gauge Name="passenger" Version="1.0">
  <Element>
    <Select>
      <Value>
        (L:Init,bool) !
        if{
        1 (>L:Nav_750_1,bool)
        1 (>L:Nav_650_1,bool)
        1 (>L:MV_KAP140,bool)
        1 (>L:MV_ADF,bool)
        1 (>L:Init,bool) }
      </Value>
    </Select>
  </Element>
</Gauge>

Change the 1 to a 0 on the secondary GPS:
0 (>L:Nav_650_1,bool)

That will remove the F1 GTN650_1 from the VC entirely! Unfortunately we don't have a standard radio to put in its place though.

As for the new L-M method for installs, far too much of out tech is tied to the 'old way' to make it practical at this juncture, especially given that this one installer has to work for all the current sims, not just P3Dv3.5 or v4.2...

[aurel]

There is no angle to the default VC camera position. There's not even a way to do that if we wished!

Well, funny story: on my system, you found a way. Let me explain to clarify what I'm seeing:

- load any default aircraft, for example one of the Alabeo Extra 300s
- zoom out (0.30) and note how much of the cockpit is visible right after loading, for example: when using windowed fullscreen on a 1080p display, I can see the upper half of the Hobbs gauge at the bottom of the window
- press the space bar and move the mouse up or down until the camera moves, then return to the "deadzone" where the camera "snaps" to a position and small mouse movements do not change the view direction any longer
- note how much of the cockpit is visible now: on my system, I still see the upper half of the Hobbs gauge at the bottom of the window

If I try the very same procedure with the 310R, this happens:

- I make sure my view is still centered and zoomed out all the way
- I load the 310R (D-IRFT)
- I can see the EGT/Leanfind (EDM700) gauges and even the top of the yoke at the bottom of my window
- I use space + mouse to find the center of the view
- now I have the bottom row of the sixpack at the bottom of my window, the EDM700 gauges are no longer visible
- if I reload the aircraft, the camera position jumps back the tilted position (ie. I can see the EDM700 again)

I assumed this was an intentional choice to have all important instruments (including the ones below the sixpack) visible in the default view in 16:9.

P3D doesn't show that kind of behaviour with any other aircraft I use. They all load up with the view centered. Which means: they all load up with a level view in VR, only the 310R has me looking down in VR. (P3D should probably ignore the "flat" camera direction when switching to native VR, just like it ignores the "flat" zoom setting, but it doesn't.)

Is P3D behaving this way only my system? Any advice on how to fix this? I am pretty confident my "cameras.cfg" is unmodified from the default file -- I recently had to "delete generated files" to debug a sim crash, and the timestamp of the "cameras.cfg" file indicates it hasn't been changed since P3D re-generated it.

We already offer 20 different panel combinations. However, if you wish you can easily "exclude" the second GPS by editing the console_GTN750_650.xml or console_GTN750_650_WX.xml files.

I understand why you didn't cover all permutations, and I also understand that performance issues are hardly an issue any more when flying "flat" on a reasonably modern computer. Flying in VR needs a lot of compromises: I need a pretty world, I need some traffic on the ground, in the water and in the air, I need some shadows and some weather, and with all that, I end up at the very lower end of a not-so-comfortable VR experience (ie. 22.5 fps sustained -- 45 would be a comfortable experience, but I guess it takes another cpu/gpu generation and some P3D optimization to get there). If I drop below that magic number, 22.5, VR goes cray cray. GTN750/650/WX makes me drop below in OrbX scenery. GTN750/650/noWX doesn't. I guess I'm just at the edge there.

I tried removing the GTN650 by editing the panel.cfg, which obviously left me with a "dead screen", but I found I'd rather keep it active because I routinely use the second radio for navigation (and I keep COM2 tuned to 121.5 for mah immershun). It's not a showstopper at all, I'm used to flying without WX.

I totally appreciate the advice on how to disable the GTN in the xml file, though. That's so much quicker than re-arranging the panel.cfg.

As for the new L-M method for installs, far too much of out tech is tied to the 'old way' to make it practical at this juncture, especially given that this one installer has to work for all the current sims, not just P3Dv3.5 or v4.2...

I can imagine that supporting this installation method in addition to the old method is more involved than just pointing the installer to a different directory and adding a single file, but if there's a way to make it possible for future projects, please know that there are users out there who would in fact really appreciate it, even if the majority of customers probably doesn't really care.

Thanks,
Marc

[N4GIX]

There is no angle to the default VC camera position. There's not even a way to do that if we wished!

Well, funny story: on my system, you found a way. Let me explain to clarify what I'm seeing:

Is P3D behaving this way only my system? Any advice on how to fix this?

I totally appreciate the advice on how to disable the GTN in the xml file, though. That's so much quicker than re-arranging the panel.cfg.

Well, I can 100% guarantee you that I've not done one thing to affect the default VC camera position. Without me having VR here, I have no idea, nor can I even guess what it might be.

Yes, editing the console_xxx.xml files will display or hide the avionics' mesh. In a few pre-set conditions, it will even move mesh to new positions when necessary.

Frankly, the biggest problem with the new P3D system is that if developers follow their SDK precisely, then all addons will wind up on the C drive in the user's AppData/Roaming folder. Can you imagine the squawks from those (like myself) who have only a 220GB SSD for their C drive?

Well yeah, technically only the addon's .xml file must be in that folder, but the actual aircraft can go on any other drive and folder, but how is one's installer supposed to know in advance? When so many things depend on absolutely predictable paths, it would be a nightmare except for very simple aircraft and systems.

[aurel]

There is no angle to the default VC camera position. There's not even a way to do that if we wished!

Well, funny story: on my system, you found a way. Let me explain to clarify what I'm seeing:

Is P3D behaving this way only my system? Any advice on how to fix this?

Well, I can 100% guarantee you that I've not done one thing to affect the default VC camera position. Without me having VR here, I have no idea, nor can I even guess what it might be.

The steps to reproduce what I'm seeing do not involve VR at all. I did all that in "flat". And P3D behaves exactly the same when I unplug the HMD before starting it.

When you (or anybody else) load the 310R, the camera position is "correctly" centered?

Perhaps P3D creates a different camera.cfg when it detects a headset? Will you show me yours if I show you mine?

Code: Select all

[CameraDefinition.002]
Title = Virtual Cockpit
Guid = {C95EAB58-9E4A-4E2A-A34C-D8D9D948F078}
Description = This is the description of the virtual cockpit view.
Origin = Virtual Cockpit
MomentumEffect = Yes
SnapPbhAdjust = Swivel
SnapPbhReturn = False
PanPbhAdjust = Swivel
PanPbhReturn = False
Track = None
ShowAxis = YES
AllowZoom = TRUE
InitialZoom = 0.7
SmoothZoomTime = 2.0
ZoomPanScalar = 1.0
ShowWeather = Yes
XyzAdjust = TRUE
ShowLensFlare=FALSE
Category = Cockpit
PitchPanRate=30
HeadingPanRate=75
PanAcceleratorTime=0
HotKeySelect=1

(I assume this is the relevant one, I would attach the whole file, but the forum won't let me.)

Thanks for your help figuring this out,
Marc

[aurel]

After loading

310r_after_loading.png (1.01 MiB) Viewed 1086 times

After leveling with space+mouse

310r_level.png (827.62 KiB) Viewed 1086 times

[N4GIX]

When you (or anybody else) load the 310R, the camera position is "correctly" centered?

"Correctly centered"? Not if you mean centered as if the pilot were sitting between the two seats!

The view is 'centered' behind the pilot's yoke with the eyeballs at the average pilot's sight lines. This is controlled by the [eyepoint] entry in the aircraft.cfg file. If you want the view centered on the aircraft, change the x axis negative offset value to zero. If you want to move the eyepoint back without affecting the default zoom, then edit the y axis (center number).

Code: Select all

[Views]
eyepoint = -0.95, -1.05, 3.60p    //Longitudinal, Lateral, Vertical (feet)

[aurel]

When you (or anybody else) load the 310R, the camera position is "correctly" centered?

"Correctly centered"? Not if you mean centered as if the pilot were sitting between the two seats!

No, sorry, that's not at all what I'm talking about. Whenever I say "centered" in any of my posts in this thread, I mean "straight and level" (relative to the aircraft, of course), as opposed to "tilted down". Sorry for not being 100% clear on that, 2nd language and all. Perhaps now you can reproduce what I'm seeing?

I am at no point talking about position, only about camera direction, and only in the vertical axis, as in "looking up or down".

[JonathanBleeker]

Your second shot actually has the horizon closer to the bottom than the top which means you actually have the camera looking above the horizon, not straight and level. The first shot does seem to have a look down but I can't help but wonder if that isn't due to the aircraft static pitch rather than the actual camera direction. If you were to go into slew mode and press control space bar, chances are the horizon will appear exactly in the middle of the screen.

[aurel]

Your second shot actually has the horizon closer to the bottom than the top which means you actually have the camera looking above the horizon, not straight and level.

And that's not how it's supposed to be? I assumed that's just the way the 310 is sitting on the ground (that's why I said "straight and level relative to the aircraft). I guess I have the choice between two imperfect options:

- With the initial camera orientation after loading the aircraft, it feels like I'm constantly leaning forward, towards the yoke.

- With camera orientation that P3D wants to snap to when using space+mouse, it feels like the aircraft sits on the ground in a slight nose-up attitude. If I match the pilot's seat with my physical seat, this feels pretty natural.

Anyway, let me not take more of your time. Obviously there is no easy fix, but a there's a workaround, and the causes of the issue are probably above my pay grade anyway.

I recommend you try the aircraft in VR if you get the chance and see for yourself whether it feels like you're leaning forward with the initial camera orientation or not.

Thanks,
Marc

[JonathanBleeker]

You could say you are leaning forward. If the aircraft is slightly nose down (you tried the slew test I mentioned?) then you would be leaning forward in reality, relative to the horizon and gravity. So the initial direction would be correct and you are experiencing an illusion.

[aurel]

You could say you are leaning forward. If the aircraft is slightly nose down (you tried the slew test I mentioned?) then you would be leaning forward in reality, relative to the horizon and gravity. So the initial direction would be correct and you are experiencing an illusion.

Sorry, here are my results of the slew test, which seem to confirm what I stated before:

If you were to go into slew mode and press control space bar, chances are the horizon will appear exactly in the middle of the screen.

- load 310R, enter slew mode, press ctrl+space: horizon above middle of screen = view in VR tilted towards ground = leaning forward

- load 310R, press ctrl+space, enter slew mode: horizon below middle of screen = view in VR tilted towards sky = leaning back

- load 310R, enter slew mode, move view up so horizon is in middle of screen: view in VR level with ground and sitting upright

- load any other aircraft, press ctrl+space: camera orientation does not change at all

You managed to create a pretty powerful and consistent illusion there.

I appreciate the input, but I guess there's nothing more to be learned here. You think I'm cray cray, and I have no way of demonstrating how the aircraft feels in VR. Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.

[JonathanBleeker]

I meant that you should enter slew mode first, and Then press Ctrl Space. What happens then?

[aurel]

I meant that you should enter slew mode first, and Then press Ctrl Space. What happens then?

- load 310R, enter slew mode, press ctrl+space: horizon above middle of screen = view in VR tilted towards ground = leaning forward

[Raptor]

I have VR (Oculus) and have not seen any issues with my camera position. The Native VR is... how to say it? ... um... tricky

... P3D's native VR does not offer a way to reset that angle. So my usual procedure is: enable VR, put on headset, notice that my view is not level, remove headset, disable VR, use Space + Mouse to center the view until it "snaps", re-enable VR, put on headset again, fly.
...

Here's what I do so I dont have to reset my view. Before enabling VR, I open the VR Menu and set my mouse on the "Enable VR" menu item but I dont hit my mouse yet. I don my Oculus and position myself in my chair and desk. Then I lift my Oculus just enough to see where my mouse is and without moving the mouse, I reseat my Oculus and left click my mouse. Because it was already in the Enable VR menu, I am sitting in the plane in the right position.

Until LM fine tunes the VR, my best bet is to use FlyInside or deal with my way of centering the view before entering VR