A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

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mythosium
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:20 am
A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by mythosium » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:55 am

Hello,

I've had about 10 flights with the DHC-3 Otter and though the aircraft itself is obviously a superb product - if it were functioning properly - for me, it's practically impossible to fly.

All these problems only come with the Milviz DHC-3. I fly a lot of other planes, too (A2A, Aerosoft Twin Otter etc. etc.) and have never encountered any of these with them.

The problems:
1) In "free flight" (=no autopilot), the plane is mildly tilting and turning to the right. As if the ailerons were trimmed to the right. I have my ailerons calibrated, and even tried setting a hotkey to center to aileron trim. I have to manually keep about about 10 degrees left on my yoke to keep it level.

2) The autopilot is totally unusable. If I select the HDG or NAV mode, the plane starts a sharp turn which it just keeps going. It doesn't stop where my heading bug is, it doesn't care about it. After a few seconds after setting the HDG or NAV mode, the plane has tilted so much it's losing altitude fast and the AP automatically disconnects.
The only mode that is working is the ROL mode. However, because of the problem #1, it is very difficult to find a level attitude for the plane which it would keep.

3) The airspeed gauge usually stops working quite early in the flight. It either starts to show 0 or gives erratic readings, sometimes also false stall warnings.

4) I'm unable to switch the magnetos or fuel tank selectors to OFF position. Of course, these are just very minor things, but maybe a clue?

---
My configuration:
- P3D 3.4
- Windows 10, 2080ti, 7700K, 16GB RAM
- Saitek Yoke and Quadrant, configured with Spad Next
- ChasePlane, AS2016, SimAcars, FSEconomy, Vpilot
---
What I've tried to solve the problem:
- Re-installing the aircraft (with anti-virus and firewalls turned off as an admin)
- Installing XML Tools from the directory of the aircraft - it hadn't done it automatically. Now there's an entry at the DLL.XML

None of these had any effect. The version is the 171229wx. I've also flown with the WX radar on and off, no change.

I hope that there would be something to fix these problems, otherwise my flights with this airplane are over.. :(

mythosium
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:20 am
Re: A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by mythosium » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:04 am

One more thing:

Upon installing, I got an error when the installer was trying to install Microsoft Visual C++ (2015?). My apps show versions 2008, 2010, 2013 and 2017 installed. The last error log tells that "Cannot install a product when a newer version is installed." I don't understand much about these Visual C++ things, if this is normal or critical.

The error log:
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i001: Burn v3.7.3813.0, Windows v10.0 (Build 17134: Service Pack 0), path: C:\Users\(edited)\Downloads\vc_redist.x64.exe, cmdline: ''
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i000: Setting string variable 'WixBundleLog' to value 'C:\Users\(edited)\AppData\Local\Temp\dd_vcredist_amd64_20190420035946.log'
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i000: Setting string variable 'WixBundleOriginalSource' to value 'C:\Users\(edited)\Downloads\vc_redist.x64.exe'
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i000: Setting string variable 'WixBundleOriginalSourceFolder' to value 'C:\Users\(edited)\Downloads\'
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i000: Setting string variable 'WixBundleName' to value 'Microsoft Visual C++ 2015 Redistributable (x64) - 14.0.24212'
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i100: Detect begin, 10 packages
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i000: Setting version variable 'windows_uCRT_DetectKey' to value '10.0.17134.677'
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i000: Setting numeric variable 'windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists' to value 1
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i102: Detected related bundle: {427ada59-85e7-4bc8-b8d5-ebf59db60423}, type: Upgrade, scope: PerMachine, version: 14.16.27012.6, operation: Downgrade
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i108: Detected compatible package: vcRuntimeMinimum_x64, provider: Microsoft.VS.VC_RuntimeMinimumVSU_amd64,v14, installed: {3ECD99CB-EDAF-45DA-AD9C-2C4875F375FB}, version: 14.16.27012, chained: {FAAD7243-0141-3987-AA2F-E56B20F80E41}
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i103: Detected related package: {3ECD99CB-EDAF-45DA-AD9C-2C4875F375FB}, scope: PerMachine, version: 14.16.27012.0, language: 0 operation: Downgrade
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i108: Detected compatible package: vcRuntimeAdditional_x64, provider: Microsoft.VS.VC_RuntimeAdditionalVSU_amd64,v14, installed: {DF5B1280-A057-4536-9D03-3BCAA0D4C6F0}, version: 14.16.27012, chained: {F20396E5-D84E-3505-A7A8-7358F0155F6C}
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i103: Detected related package: {DF5B1280-A057-4536-9D03-3BCAA0D4C6F0}, scope: PerMachine, version: 14.16.27012.0, language: 0 operation: Downgrade
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.3 AND NOT VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.3 AND VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.2 AND NOT VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.2 AND VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.1 AND NOT VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.1 AND VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.0 AND NOT VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition '(VersionNT = v6.0 AND VersionNT64) AND (windows_uCRT_DetectKeyExists AND windows_uCRT_DetectKey >= v10.0.10240.0)' evaluates to false.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: vcRuntimeMinimum_x64, state: Obsolete, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: vcRuntimeAdditional_x64, state: Obsolete, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: Windows81_x86, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: Windows81_x64, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: Windows8_x86, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: Windows8_x64, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: Windows7_MSU_x86, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: Windows7_MSU_x64, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: WindowsVista_MSU_x86, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i101: Detected package: WindowsVista_MSU_x64, state: Absent, cached: None
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i052: Condition 'VersionNT64 >= v6.0 OR (VersionNT64 = v5.2 AND ServicePackLevel >= 1)' evaluates to true.
[3C30:2298][2019-04-20T03:59:46]i199: Detect complete, result: 0x0
[3C30:291C][2019-04-20T03:59:49]e000: Error 0x80070666: Cannot install a product when a newer version is installed.

Chuck Jodry
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 4:30 pm
Re: A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by Chuck Jodry » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:20 pm

The first place I would direct you is to the documents folder to get the manuals out , there are a series of obligations regarding switches for inverters as well the autopilot has a number of real world idiosyncrasies accurately modelled , such as keypress times , clicking is not sufficient they need to be held , the unit is set up on the ground as well , its not one that's turned on after takeoff in general .

With luck a brief overview of procedures will suffice to resolve the issue .

If not we will need to assess the possible reasons there are issues with these systems .

Best CJ

mythosium
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:20 am
Re: A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by mythosium » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:39 pm

Hello Chuck,

Thank you for the reply.

Unfortunately the manuals didn't help. I've studied the KAP-140 manual and the aircraft manual quite thoroughly, also been flightsimming for 15 years, so I don't understand what's going on.

You mentioned the inverter settings; I didn't find any info on them on the manuals. Is there something I should know? I troubleshooted with those switches in-flight as well, trying different settings with no change, though.

By the way, the aileron trim knob know is inoperative (just static, not like there is anything to be able to turn. Is this how it's supposed to be?

Best regards

Taguilo
Posts: 658
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:49 am
Re: A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by Taguilo » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:28 pm

Hi,
mythosium wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:55 am

1) In "free flight" (=no autopilot), the plane is mildly tilting and turning to the right. As if the ailerons were trimmed to the right. I have my ailerons calibrated, and even tried setting a hotkey to center to aileron trim. I have to manually keep about about 10 degrees left on my yoke to keep it level.
Check your weight distribution. Aircraft is sensitive to that. Usually a bit of rudder trim will solve the right bank tendency. And there is no aileron trim on the Otter.
2) The autopilot is totally unusable. If I select the HDG or NAV mode, the plane starts a sharp turn which it just keeps going. It doesn't stop where my heading bug is, it doesn't care about it. After a few seconds after setting the HDG or NAV mode, the plane has tilted so much it's losing altitude fast and the AP automatically disconnects.
The only mode that is working is the ROL mode. However, because of the problem #1, it is very difficult to find a level attitude for the plane which it would keep.
Please read *carefully* the KAP140 manual. This autopilot behaves like the real unit, so you must understand how HDG bug must be operated in NAV mode.
3) The airspeed gauge usually stops working quite early in the flight. It either starts to show 0 or gives erratic readings, sometimes also false stall warnings.
I strongly recommend you remove the pitot covers before starting a flight. And it must be done on the ground, not possible once airborne.
4) I'm unable to switch the magnetos or fuel tank selectors to OFF position. Of course, these are just very minor things, but maybe a clue?
Have you paid attention to tooltips? They clearly state "Middle Click to Off". Please click on your wheel/middle button for that.

Thanks!

mythosium
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:20 am
Re: A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by mythosium » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:03 pm

Taguilo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:28 pm
Hi,
mythosium wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:55 am

1) In "free flight" (=no autopilot), the plane is mildly tilting and turning to the right. As if the ailerons were trimmed to the right. I have my ailerons calibrated, and even tried setting a hotkey to center to aileron trim. I have to manually keep about about 10 degrees left on my yoke to keep it level.
Check your weight distribution. Aircraft is sensitive to that. Usually a bit of rudder trim will solve the right bank tendency. And there is no aileron trim on the Otter.

Can you give some advice on the correct weight distribution? I always try to spread the weight as evenly between front, middle and aft. Is there a way to distribute weight to left/right also? I've even tried setting the rudder trim to full left, with no result. To me, it feels more like aileron trim problem: the right wing is continuosly turning lower and turning the plane. The very same effect as if someone was turning the yoke to the right, not the rudder.

To clarify, I've tried setting my yoke both through FSUIPC and Spad (not at the same time, of course), and they calibrated to the center. This problem only occurs on DHC-3.

And was also asking about the aileron trim, because its location and functioning is quite detailedly told in the manual but not the fact that it is not operational

2) The autopilot is totally unusable. If I select the HDG or NAV mode, the plane starts a sharp turn which it just keeps going. It doesn't stop where my heading bug is, it doesn't care about it. After a few seconds after setting the HDG or NAV mode, the plane has tilted so much it's losing altitude fast and the AP automatically disconnects.
The only mode that is working is the ROL mode. However, because of the problem #1, it is very difficult to find a level attitude for the plane which it would keep.
Please read *carefully* the KAP140 manual. This autopilot behaves like the real unit, so you must understand how HDG bug must be operated in NAV mode.

Have read it twice already. I set the HDG bug as told by the manual. It doesn't matter if it's HDG or NAV mode, the way the plane reacts is equally crazy. Even if I was doing it wrong in NAV mode (despite following the manual's instructions to my understanding, trying to come from 30 degree horizontal angle etc., setting the bug manually), I think the HDG mode should always take the plane where the bug is pointing. It is not; setting it starts an irrational wild ride and eternal sharp-bank, fast-turning circle until AP disconnects because the plane is banked maybe 60 degree and losing speed and altitude.

3) The airspeed gauge usually stops working quite early in the flight. It either starts to show 0 or gives erratic readings, sometimes also false stall warnings.
I strongly recommend you remove the pitot covers before starting a flight. And it must be done on the ground, not possible once airborne.

Yes, noticed I had them on one flight. Hope that this will solve it.
4) I'm unable to switch the magnetos or fuel tank selectors to OFF position. Of course, these are just very minor things, but maybe a clue?
Have you paid attention to tooltips? They clearly state "Middle Click to Off". Please click on your wheel/middle button for that.

I have tooltips always turned off so didn't see this info but thanks!

Thanks!

mythosium
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:20 am
Re: A lot of control and a/p problems with the DHC-3

Post by mythosium » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:48 pm

Seem to have found out the reason to the strange behavior! I flew with the attitude indicator in the caged mode. As soon as I changed that setting, the plane started to fly beautifully!


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